Dog Breeders Dilemma: Science VS Real World Knowledge And Finding Balance

best home dog Training program Develops your Dog's Hidden Intelligence Click Here 👈 so don't you tell me I am selfish...

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so don't you tell me I am selfish just because I look out for myself I've been happy working hard so I won't have to cry when I'm older I could have done this or that I remember when I used to don't do it cuz it doesn't work I got to tell your sh I did it so I know you got this we're all living for best you'll get your dreams just do your best so don't welcome to NWA Connie Corso's podcast where we talk all things dog welcome back to another show in wa Cony Coro where we talk all things dogs I got some special guests in the house Martin and school boy what's up gentlemen how you doing good I'm doing good everything good yes sir yes sir thanks well um glad to be here again glad to have Martin on here too oh yeah yeah yeah it's been a long time you guys today yes sir yes sir yeah uh if if it's some people that probably not first time tuning in school boy can you just give them a brief intro who you are yeah well I've been involved with the I'm mostly a pit bull guy I grew up country so when I was younger we had horses cattle livestock we also had Working Cow dogs so I've had dogs my whole life we had German Shepherds we had muts different different animals and uh you know that kind of that's kind of the way when I got into the pit bu that's kind of the way I looked at it meaning you have domestic animals for a purpose they have to provide a function even if it's a dog that's a pet like we had German Shepherds they were pets but they were also our Companions and our protectors so anytime I look at an animal it doesn't matter if it's used for food that's a function and a purpose as well but we're talking about sporting or working animals they have a particular function that's what they were bred for every breed of dog every breed of horse every breed of chicken uh you know used in cattle oxen whatever you want to think about everything had a purpose and it was developed along the lines of the those purposes so when I got into the pit bulls that's one of the reasons I did for the competition side of it to be a competitor eventually a breeder so I've been involved with the breed for almost 50 years and uh along with that you know I'm also a show judge uh of Judge weight pools in several different states in the United States and all over Mexico central South America Europe judging shows along with going on several hog hunts because I think if I'm going to talk about a particular subject I have to have some kind of of information about handson so to speak I'm not a hunter I'm not a game foul guy but I've been involved in them in some way or another and with the pit bu I think the more aspects of it you can be involved in then the more experience you're going to have with it the more knowledge you can you can use to your benefit gotta Martin yeah my name's uh Martin Gonzalez AR I live here on the Oregon coast uh I'm in the American Bulldog I had pitbull terriers before middle school and high school I love the dogs they were a little much for me to handle as a kid uh so I have the American Bulldogs now they're the bully type they're uh companions first and uh home Guardians vehicle Guardians driveway Guardians is also what I I breed for um you know when I first started with the the American Bulldog they were a little much for some people to handle and I would get some back or they would have to be rehomed so having a dog that serves its function as a a guardian and a companion that is easy to live with is extremely important to me you know sometimes you have those dogs in the kennels that just bark and Pace all day that just need constant attention and you have those American Bulldogs that are ready to play they're alert but they're okay with sleeping hours at a time if if you're home so that's kind of what I do um I'm involved in in some poultry I grew up around poultry um I live out here in the country also so that's what I do I'm I'm in uh I'm in the restaurant industry so I do that most of the time gotcha all right um I love to eat you ain't the only one I tell you what uh up here you have a a variety of experience with me probably being the least experien Martin how long you been breeding I've been breeding the American Bulldog since 2012 and I had the pit bulls for about two years before that okay and then school boy almost 50 years so it's a variety up here uh yeah I don't I don't have dogs anymore I want to make it clear I don't have dogs anymore right but I'm involved you know I have YouTube and you know I go all over the place anyways but but I have a protoe that took my blood and kept it going so it's it's been around uh uh uh almost almost 40 years oh go yeah yeah same bloodline same same dogs there there's stuff added to it but try to keep it a straight as possible you know yeah and uh with that you try and keep the traits that you that that you like that you want to preserve and you can do that over extended period of time using certain methods and it's basically just following the traits yes sir keep them in there don't lose them yeah let I'mma ask you about that but uh so it's a lot of information out on YouTube everybody got their breeding prefaces they're breeding uh a lot of science involved in breeding now um but going back into that point you was about to make how the Breeders select dogs in earlier times mostly based on performance along with that if you're just if they were just starting in and acquiring dogs you have to get have a certain amount of experience that takes time so it might take a few years or a couple years whatever it is and some people from Jump Street got in on good dogs but they wanted to go to breeders that were producing dogs good ones and also dogs that were being used in competition so for example with the Pitbull if you look at most of the Bloodlines named after dogs they're dogs that were competed with right Grand Champion Zebo grand champion Bol Leo you know uh Mayday Grand Champion Mayday that that that's the foundation of it right because without performance the pedigree doesn't really mean anything right they they coincide with each other you have the performance side covered or the function side covered that pedigree becomes very important it's a road map family history and it tells you you know which direction you can go moving forward right so basically that's how it was done and mostly word of mouth when periodicals start coming out then people would advertise but it still involved travel unless somebody lived in your area or KN not too far away which that happened a lot too that's why you see certain Bloodlines or certain breeders dogs or certain dogs themselves from a particular area becoming popular in that area and then spreading out uh later on because that those those people that lived there had good dogs so naturally people that lived by wanted dogs from them but that's what the older guys would do they would go to the people that had a basically a record to back up their breeding program and then they would they would go from there and and most breeders most future breeders let's say uh tutor or heinel you know they they would acquire dogs from several different breeders and then start their own family of dogs have a foundation build from there there right and uh black tutor got dogs from Lightner and kobby and you know Hino got dogs from tutor and Kobe and and henfield and Corino they all kind of knew each other right and they would get dogs from the guys in the past whether it was Armitage or or uh Williams or all these guys kind of knew each other or at least knew of their dogs and you just start getting from each other and then you make a foundation and then you start breeding your dogs and at some point all your dogs are going to be related to some extent or another some tight some Loosely some whatever but uh that's how they would do it gotcha gotcha so so Martin um what what has been your most uh beneficial way you have learned dog breeding or has it been a combination of many things the science the uh the older dog men wisdom definitely being obsessed with dogs you want to learn everything you want to hear everything that sounds right you're willing to pay for information I was as a kid I was willing to walk to the library and check out every single book and then like the book and then try and find it to buy it uh listening to people who were doing a good job who had the dogs I liked and most recently on on the internet trying to learn the as much as I can and then when when I would hear from someone in the beginning i' be like all right that sounds good and and then someone else would maybe come along and contradict it and then I'd have to kind of figure out what it meant and sometimes I wouldn't figure it out right away and then two three years later I'd figure out yeah that was that was wrong what I heard first right always tread lightly and I feel like I've learned a lot in the last 10 eight years but I always tell this to people who breed uh chickens people who breed dogs people who are with other animals I say this is my theory this is what I've learned this is what I'm doing now because I haven't I haven't finished it you know I'm I have h four generations on my yard and uh it's taken a little bit longer than that so I I think hopefully God willing I'm halfway there and then after I finish the second half I could say this is the way one way to do it this is the way I did it but right now I call it theory proven by other people supposedly but I haven't I haven't proved it yet y yeah that's the main thing is you gota minded and follow the science and and just look into everything even stuff like Embark like some people in some communities the dogs are saying Embark DNA testing or wisdom panel this is bare minimum you should do this when you sell your dogs all right I'm not saying that if they do it it's cool because bu buy a couple dogs and they're already embarked in my mind that's one less generation of test breeding with the American Bulldog we have a condition called I and I ran into it in two breedings it's a recessive uh recessive gene that when it gets both both genes the puppies are born with a a skin condition their whole skin is just like an open sore that never heals so they get infections and die so those those pups uh don't make it to adulthood at all so when I did my test breedings I got that now I knew hey both of these both of these dogs are carriers I need to find a dog that's not a carrier I went to another dog who wasn't supposedly a carrier and it was a carrier so you know I wasted two two breedings right there if I would have just had theark but you know once once you have your dogs and and you know what Embark test for and you know your dogs are fine and you just keep going you don't New Blood there's stuff like that shouldn't pop up so that's just one example of of ways that I'm learning I'm learning slow but I tend to not make the same mistake twice yeah yeah that Embark testing is a tool um I know some people that LE lean heavily on it me myself I like balance I like that I like that uh because I've talked to many breeders right and um and they might not even use inar this is your oldtime breeding they'll be like I got that [ __ ] in my lines but they know it you know what I mean and then you test you test their dogs and they don't they don't have it they like they know their lines you know what I'm saying they you know um you know and other people probably had tested it for him and things like that but I like that good balance of uh uh of learning I don't like to extreme one way or another I know a lot I I see this is what I see y'all I see guys that either they pedigree breeders lean heavily on science and math all the way COI Co all this stuff uh I I see a lot of that nowadays I almost see that like the the the wisdom you know that yard wisdom you get when you visit a uh older breeder and those things and how to breed for certain things is almost going out the window is it's it's more about numbers now not knocking it I'm just saying that it's not it it seemed like it's extreme in some ways instead of a good balance what is what is the mo most important uh uh thing for you Martin for the first thing you looking at if you didn't know anything about uh how do I put this uh for a beginner what would the first thing you tell him to learn about dogs you have to learn the breed of course see what it looks like you have to see you have to look at within the breed some breeds you can have a couple styles of dogs you have to know what what you're going to get into and what you want you know whether it's maybe an in between or between two Styles uh you have to know what you're going to do because you don't want to get three or four generations in and then want to switch your style or your type of dog or say hey these dogs are are hardcore working dogs and I can't sell the hardcore working people because I don't go out to events people don't know me I'm selling to pets pet homes impulse buyers or something like that you don't want to do that you're gonna you know you have to know the lane you have to know the breed you have to know if you're gonna sell more dogs in you keep you have to be able to to do all that or it's going to slow you down that's the first thing second thing is is with breeding be able to look at a dog in front of you and know what you have to avoid the kennel blindness now some degree might be a thing at first it definitely was with me I was I was terrible at it at first and even uh my dad's been helping me with this stuff he went through his cell phone and went through the old pictures and he's like man I thought the dogs we had at the beginning were awesome they were great look how look how bad they look I'm like yeah I told you I was trying to pet home dogs like crazy in the beginning and my family slow down but now we're you know we're bumping numbers up and then bumping numbers back down just uh pet homing stuff just like an over production you'll have a a better looking guard if you can produce 20 and then cut down to 10 and do that like I don't know every two years every year every three years just bump it up and then cut it in half keep your half best dogs you know even if you have to fix some dogs so so your your stuff doesn't get into breeding hands whatever it is that's another thing some people don't realize with the Modern Age and how things are with breeds is uh how much you're going to have to pet home at least at first you're just going to get rid of dogs it's just not everything is going to work especially when you're in a breed like mine where you have a bunch of different types and if you follow those pedigrees back to the early 2000s and 90s the the dogs and the pedigrees might not be the style of the dogs and the pedigrees you have closer to up front so there's other breeds like uh the Boral that have different type of breeds so you have to you have to be aware of that if you're after a certain style of dogs you might get popups that are different so right right hey school boy so modern day versus uh the the past what do you think the modern day breeder is missing from tools you remember in the past yeah well like you mentioned there they uh and by the way Martin you made a lot of good points there uh what you mentioned is is uh people breeding on pedigrees you know and I tell people this when they if they want to get involved with the breed just like you said you have to learn everything you can about it but that's across the board whatever you enjoy whatever you love whatever is your passion you should know everything about it the history of it how it was developed what it does what its function like for me I love guns right I love horse racing I love American muscle cars so what I love boxing so it's important for me to get as much information as I can about that particular subject I mean you have guys you know sitting on the couch every Sunday they can give you all the stats of the of the teams yards rushing how many touchdown what their record is what their performance is of this individual that wide rece all that stuff but they're dog breeders and they don't know [ __ ] about their dogs they don't know the history of their own animals even if they had a pedigree unless they were familiar with the dogs in the pedigree which may be one generation two generation but they don't know anything past that so for me H having all that information it allows me to move forward uh in the beginning I mean forward from that point moving forward is I breed my dog because I'll see stuff in them that I know was in the back and I'm either going to keep it in my breeding program or I'm going to call it for my breeding so when you have uh as far as in the past and now and this question comes up you know all the time right what would you rather have a game dog or a hard mou dog it goes back and forth like that all the time right I never answer that question the way they want me to answer I tell them why can't you have both who would want only a game dog that don't have no mouth or no ability who would want only a hard mouth dog that's going to quit it's ridiculous for me to think that way so when you're talking about old methods and new science for me it's it's not either or you should put both together right if the new cuz all science does is it tells you what people did in the past or it tells you it gives a name to a particular thing that's all it does and the new science comes up with stuff that we don't even know about like he was saying with the with that disease So speaking about the past the way I looked at it was like this some of my dogs could be destructed right so I would never breed two dogs that were destructive I want to breed a dog if it's destructive I really like it I'm going to breed it to a dog that's not like that now if science can can figure out in these particular dogs or in this family of dog there's a fault there just like he was saying you don't want to breed a dog with that fault to another one that has the same fault that that because you're G to compound the fault and it's going to come out more so in the past it was more knowing the animals you know guys knew horses up and down back and forth all the way around they knew dogs and today a little bit of that is being lost because children are not being raised with animals like they were in the past so even if you take all the function out of it they don't know that particular species of animal whether it's a horse dog chicken whatever they don't know the little ins and outs because they don't spend time with them they don't breed them they don't see how they're grow how they grow how they develop what their character istics are how they think so that a lot of that is being lost and like I mentioned before you can have a great pedigree but if you don't know anything about the individuals in the pedigree and there's nothing as far as performance or function or some kind of uh uh reason for you to have that particular individual then you're just Lo you're just beaing on paper or you're breeding on because I like this dog because it's red or black or blue or whatever color it is so I think I think both of them have to be utilized to so that you can have an allaround understanding of a particular breed of dog or your own family of dogs you know I used to write everything down everything I could think of whether it was a show I was at a show I went to how I won lost all the schooling how how much they weighed at a certain age what their color were what their temperament was I've got hundreds of notebooks Going Back 40 years to have that all all that information and what it does in my videos it helps me use those as notes so when I make a video I just write down notes and it reminds me in my mind you know what what I'm going to talk about well when you're breeding dog if you have those notes from the past you can reflect on them and use them with the individuals you have in front of you meaning something like well his great great grandfather weighed this much had these particular traits had this certain behavior and temperament and I see it in this individual today so those traits have been carried on for three four generations and I still have them now right right that's that's kind of how I look at it you gotta have both science can help but if you don't put science into practical use it doesn't mean anything that's right it means nothing and uh another thing too uh I'm like I said I like the good balance of uh the the the wisdom the real world wisdom the science and everything but I don't like uh if I was going to lean the streem I'm going to lean on that human who has who has put his hands on it and raise it more than anything but the thing about uh Health test people have to realize it's a good thing it's a great tool but you better be careful on your uh uh who you still who you buy the dogs from and the terminology of the contract because this is what I seen guys I've seen uh oh my camera's out hold on one second I'mma keep talking though I've seen people T Health testing this health testing that hip testing this joint testing that but in the in but if something ever happens they don't cover the dog you know what I mean they don't uh they don't uh they don't uh uh if you read the contract carefully uh you'll see that well uh it got to be uh sever hip displasia uh dehab hip displasia same if it's mild dis displ so I just think breeders should be clear about what they going to cover most of them most of the contract is just you usually neurolog uh neurological uh or something like that so right just because two healthy dogs are put together don't mean it won't create that DNA test tells me pieces of information I'd like to know like for example if somebody wants to breed a color out they do a cross breed and they don't want the tan points from the Rottweiler and their bandg or whatever they can use that to breed the tan points out uh if they're going to do an inbreeding a brother sister in breeding uh they can do that and it'll tell them uh how in what is it called the coefficient of relation or the coefficient of inbreeding you know some or if you're going to go to a parent it'll tell you what percentage of DNA it shares with a parent you could have a parent and a offspring that share 59% and then another one that shares uh 45% so if you know if you wanted you could take that one that shares 45% to to breed that's what I see a lot of people doing also using using those percentages that that are you know otherwise just a probability 50% right uh you know I I tell people because I'm not a scientist right and I understand a lot of the terminology and I can read anything and understand it right so in doing that when I learn some terminology or I learn something scientific right I can relate it to something that I did in the past even though in the past I didn't know what words they were using for right the technique is the same the method is same the results are the same so I always talk about preventative maintenance and being that I'm not a scientist or a nutritionist or any dog psychologist right what I focused on was Health Vigor Vitality Constitution durability so in my mind if you have strong healthy individuals and you call the ones that are not strong and healthy and if you're in the the if you're the type of breeder that sells dogs and and an individual pops up that doesn't meet your standard in my experience I'm going to call it but let's say it's a nice healthy looking pup and it it you sell it to a person and these faults come out right if you would replace those dogs with those faults or it's not a good individual having that prerequisite of health and durability and all that you're not going to have to replace a lot of dog you're not going to get a lot of calls after they leave your yard so the percentage of having to replace dogs if you have standards like I just mentioned is going to be very low it shouldn't be a lot so when I see that happening I mean I've seen people send they send me pictures they send me a little video of the dog look at school boy look at how this dog came in the dog got a [ __ ] or lip or crooked leg or it's got obviously you know it's got rickets or something can't even stand up or it's heavily severely undershot or it's missing an eye or it's you know bleed Co Hawk sway back it's all messed up right people are selling dogs like that and and the reason they do it in my opinion again is because they're trying to cover the loss that they had uh and putting all their money into raising and feeding and vaccinations and all this stuff testing and all that stuff so all they're doing is giving you a problem that they don't want rather than calling that individual take the hit take the loss and producing better individuals where in the long run you ain't going to have a lot of calls you ain't going to have a lot of returns right where people are not happy with your dogs and and over time you're going to have that reputation as being a solid breeder that produces healthy individuals with good temperament and behavior and every once in a while there's going to be a call in there for me uh economically that that's not a big loss I'll take that hit you know it it's not that big of a deal but if you're putting a bunch of them out there you're going to you're going to put yourself in a hole where by word of mouth it's going to get around you sell people unhealthy dogs and now you're going to be stuck with three or four litters you can't get rid of them you're GNA have to drop the price of them or whatever it is you have to do and then boom just like that you're you're out of the game nobody's going to deal with you your reputation should matter the quality of your individual should matter your family of dogs or whatever it is chickens whatever should matter yeah and it all for me it all starts with that Health First right I know people used to get on to me uh when I used to work a lot you know I used to work these jobs and everything and I'll be like accidentally winning the employee of the month and and I didn't I I didn't kiss no tail or nothing like that but they like dang you a hardworking dude man I hear D like we respect your work ethic they said why you work so hard and uh I like man CU I don't want people saying [ __ ] to me you know I don't want them coming you ain't doing this you ain't doing I hate that you know what I'm saying yeah I rather put out the best product I could because I don't want to hear nothing about them dogs in the in you know what I mean I don't want to come back and bite me so um and and one thing people have to realize when you get into the dog game you gonna take hits you gonna take hits take heavy hits to your pockets I've paid a $3,000 stud fee to get two puppies and I only liked one of them yeah and wrong gender so I didn't keep it wow yeah yeah and no that happened yeah we have a saying probably you guys do and your thing there ain't no money in dogs you know you don't you don't make money like you know right you can't they can help support their own you know feed and all that stuff but there's and there have people that have made money on pit bull but they're few and far between one one guy every generation you know it's not it doesn't work that way right I'm sure you've heard this before the word tand yeah tand these dogs are th you get yeah in in in and then maybe later you'll get it back and then you put it back in in and then you get it put it back in yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah no that's true that's true it has to be like like even in the horse racing Community where there's Millions if not billions of dollar involved there's only certain individuals that actually make money doing it because of all the cost involved and and uh and even with game file guys you can win all kinds of der you can be at a high level but there's a cost to that you have to have hundreds and hundreds of birds and you have to have all this feed and upkeep and all that right so if you can if you can keep yourself above 50% cost you know maybe 51 52 you're Golden man because you're not really losing money right you're not getting rich off of it but you can continue to do what you like to do and most of it is not out of pocket right so you know with pit bulls back in the day if you want enough it help pay for the dog if you lost too much it's hitting you in the pocket man you're not paying your bill you might not pay your light bill or your rent everything you gotta be kind of smart about it yeah I uh I I often laugh uh I uh because I I kind of observe how people try to point uh get attention toward them to sell their dogs because some dudes uh this is this is their way of life you know I don't put all my my my my ducks on these dogs and I'm G live off the dogs and sometimes they uh I noticed how a lot of them advertise and they'll adverti this is the best dog zaz blaz Blas look at my facility and uh look I do this I do that you know but anything you anything you put out somebody can that somebody can knock something on it anything oh yeah you show anything and somebody it's something somebody can knock on it for and people like that they they have income even if they have a nice facility they have other income coming in somewhere else whether it's their wife working they have mult businesses or they have a side hustle whatever it is even me I can I can live on what I do now right and it would be very cheaply all this YouTube and the you know sales books and all that stuff but I have side hustles that help subsidize that income yeah right that's what keeps us above water we do this my wife does this and that and blah we got all this stuff I sell other products I have involvement in other things where I can make extra money doing that right and and it's the same thing with dog guys that's how they do it yeah yeah because if you force I don't want to be forced to use dogs uh as my main form of income yeah because I believe you just you just have to make some bad decisions you know what I'm saying you just have to crank them out you have to crank them out yeah breeds on the property say it again a lot of people who sell dogs for a living have tons of breeds like six yeah from the little little ones probably make the most money take the least so the ones they like it's it's what I've noticed you know it's hard to become an expert in all of them yeah it is it is yeah yeah I notice too uh uh it's a lot of breeders you might they might not advertise but I know I do two breeds but I I see a b d to breed I ain't gonna say well but at least five different dogs damn what you doing they they had a they had a nerve they had a nerve enough to call us puppy mills and backyard breeders you know just you know small time you know what I mean yeah they pointing a finger at you and four four fingers are pointing back at them right right right yeah so I mean the dog game the dog game is uh uh a different game because it it's it's it's all kind of in my the Corso it is all kind of of people involved I mean all kind of people it's different than the American Bulldog I mean or the uh the apbt I mean it's all kind of people involved in the course brother course so is when I was in high scho I never you know I started hearing of it maybe eight years ago heavy and all of a what I see from outside up in popularity pretty fast I don't know case maybe it had always been popular but no no no it just really starting start explo explode the last few years I always knew about it because some uh a person I uh know that had read him for a long time but no it started it started to really get popular last few years yeah that could for example the companion French Bulldog you know it was it was had shows got really popular and it changed a lot really did change before the problem I see French Tins in newspaper for sale Three quter French Bulldogs one quarter Boston relatively cheap they got all the colors stuff and some of them look really nice but you still have to be careful for what you some people aren't right right uh yeah I used to think uh some of the well it's true some of the Pitbull guys they were really Cutthroat you know and then I hear from these other uh you know different breeds of dogs or even some horse people and whatever that man they worse than us some of them you I'm telling you boy I hey I hear it all because I do this podcast so like I I don't know why uh sometime I wish people put things in comments but man I'll get a 100 calls about what you may may say on this show bro well you know what well he ain't right why you even tell it to him that mean why you yeah yeah I'm bu but anyway uh both of you guys are unique uh in another way too because uh you guys have uh mess with some gang foul and you still do Martin right so my family is from halisco in Mexico okay and little little town where we're from people there have have foul like people here have firewood like every other every other family every other house has has fou right so I have some poultry now and uh I love the breeding of the poultry that's the reason I have it it really scratches that breeders itch because you can produce a lot you could hatch a lot of egg uh you can eat them and it's not a big deal you got wrong color wrong confirmation uh you can you can eat them you can eat your KS and then if you got some that are unhealthy well you know if you just if you just put it down it's not a big deal because that chicken's unhealthy get the other one sick you know with dogs that's not a thing if you got a unhealthy dog you know you might spend 80 $100 a month for the rest of his life for medication yeah chick are are different you know right right right so it's a different level with with the ethical thing more you could have 100 in in a year you could it's it's different and you get a lot done it really it really opened my eyes to what breeding can really be and how fast you could get something you know you could create a line five six years dogs with modern breeds that's tough and another thing that the foul has showed me people there's a lot of Peddlers definitely uh people follow big names like they would follow a breed you'll hear a name of a chicken whether I don't know whatever name you could take that name like it's a breed like it's pit bull Rottweiler like it's whatever it is people will keep those animals for the name you'll have one hen that's a nice healthy feminine uh active two-year-old two-year-old hen and then you'll have an eight-year-old hen with a popular name and people oh no that hen is great and it's short legs and it looks all weird why is that head look like a pigeon just wrong but they'll want to keep you know that that famous named hen and it could not even be true that that thing could have passed through uh six breeders in eight years you know one generation off to the next breeder one generation sells to the next breeder came from a flea market so what I've noticed you have better luck if you find a good breeder who's been breeding them for years when it comes to poultry so if you know someone that that line has been in their family for 30 years first the father had it and now the sun has it and you buy it that's a good way to start as long as you get with someone who's not lying to you so I take that with all the stuff I learned there into the dogs you know if someone has had uh you know some dogs for 10 generations and it's what you like you got a you got a better shot than it'll be more scatter Breed by by default usually if you know you look at the pedigree and in five generations it's been been through four breed four different breeders because it's not the same selection it's not the person with the same criteria you know they might it sometimes it takes two generations to run into a problem or sometimes they'll run into a problem on the first breeding but they just sell everything off so you don't know what you're getting and that's also when Embark can come into in could come can be useful but you have to know what you're looking for also with that gocha gotta very well said yeah that happens with the dogs too yeah it does keep calls and breed them or like I mentioned earlier they'll get rid of them the the the game foul is part of our like he mentioned it's part of our culture so it's it's nothing for you know it was it was just normal when I was a kid to go to them see them people have them and they have a ton of them and me I use uh you know I use I got information from all different type of species of animal dog guys game foul guys horse breeders here and abroad you know and different uh because a lot of the breeding techniques they're a same the cost the board the differences ours like with game foul and dogs they eat different stuff they they're they're uh you know the way they produ they're not mammals right so in that respect they're not the same but but the breeding methods and techniques are the same and I found it interesting that this the same terminology I was using a game file breeder would use or a horse breeder would use or the same standards were being used right so what I did is I studied the guys that were at the top because that's where I wanted to be I wanted to be like ear tutor I wanted to be like Frank Shai or tessio in Europe or Woody Stevens with racehorse is you know Ronald Bo guys like that you know so I wanted to I studied their methods through pedigrees talking with some of them reading their books right and then I could apply what what could be applied to the dogs I could use it for myself so and he's right someone who has their own family of dogs their own bloodline whatever you want to call it for years and years if they're producing top individuals that's the guys you want to go to if they have something available right you're better off doing that than going to somebody that just has a breed name for example Frank Shai said don't follow breed names right because without that performance it don't mean nothing it may be a hatch chicken right but that doesn't mean it represents the hatch bloodline it's just the name right so there's three three things I tell people people when you're looking for to to get a hold of something or even your own standards to keep the three most important things to me anyways is who has them and what they do with them how they're raised which is epigenetics basically and if the breedings click meaning it doesn't matter how they're bred if the breeding didn't work don't keep it I'm not one of those type where well it'll SK a generation and and they do right and you can use that breeding method but for me it's a waste to skip a generation when I can have it what I want every generation right and and when I started out I did Heavy calling and heavy testing and only ended up with a few individuals it's rare for somebody to do that because they're looking at how much time and effort and money they put into but in the long run it's going to pay off because you'll have less calls you'll have better individuals so nothing in this game happens fast it takes time no matter what you have to have patience and experience and you get that as you go along and if you do that you're going to be around for for years and years the only reason my stuff is still around was because my Protegé followed what I told them and used the same standards and methods that I use and he still asks for information and and and advice and all like that you know so you can keep a family of whatever going for a long time with game foul you can do it quicker so for example if you had game file and you have dogs and you're breeding your game fou you get the results quicker and you have more individuals you can use that information with your dog which is going to take longer but the end result is going to be the same it's just with with chicken comes a lot faster you have a lot more I mean they hatch in what 21 days days or whatever it is days you know yeah you could they can lay egg so many eggs over a long period of time you can have you can have a lot more of them if you put money to money for the same price that you use on dogs the same amount you use on dogs you can have a ton more individuals with game foul or any birds basically uh because the cost would match up like that you can you know for $5 you can feed a chicken for you know a week or what ever where is $5 a day for a dog something like that I don't know what the actual money is but but looking it like that so you can have more of them you can read them and look at their results and then apply it to your dog or horses whatever right but let me ask you guys this since y'all both dealt with the foul part would you say that a that a that a a bird a chicken foul can take way more inbreeding than a dog can so I in theory yes that's what people tell me the amount of what is it chromosomes they have more so there's more of a combination and it's not as tight like humans have less than dogs so dogs can take more than humans or whatever but in my theory I've only I've done uh way more in the in the chickens they were able to withstand it but those specific individuals were bred by somebody who had them for almost 30 years and with the dogs I I personally haven't done as much with the dogs like I've done I've done pretty tight breedings where where they're tight for for fur moms like way too tight for fur moms where they wouldn't buy them but probably nothing extreme to school boy so in my own experience I would say yes and you can get away with it because I mean if you only have one surviving individual that's good that makes it uh to adulthood and Into The Brood pens with the chickens that's fine that's great hey we got good one out there if it it doesn't work next year with with the next uh ones we'll just take one step back and we'll keep it at four times a dad you know and with dogs uh maybe but I feel like with dogs a lot of people if they only got one one individual out of the litter that survived they they wouldn't go that far but maybe they would I don't know that that's to everyone but I lean to saying yes I lean towards saying that chickens can take more okay yeah very well Shar very well Shar yeah but then because you got you got to think about uh like ethical issues for it what you'll face with dogs being that you can dispose of chickens rather easily like you give them to a brother like me and I show you what to do with chicken if you don't want it yeah yeah well well with with game foul that's hard because it's they not regular chickens you know you Ain you ain't gonna bake a game file and eat it like it's not like that what's the difference what's the difference in it the tougher man the muscle you'd have to boil a game f for about five hours to get is soft really uh there's there's a bit of a The Taste when I my chickens ate yeah they taste more natural I think I mean like oh these are different now now with chickens you know they don't they don't live that long anyway before you butcher them anyway so but but uh a two or three year old chicken game file compared to a two or three year old you know uh Road Island R and red or something like that there's a difference man I I know gamef guy they they wouldn't eat their chickens because they're too tough okay yeah yeah they'd feed it to their dogs or they'd feed it to even even their pigs or whatever right but as far as egg production the egg isn't the same and okay you know if you do Raise Your Chickens whether they for food or game file they are more natural they are healthier they don't have all that junk inside of chemicals or roids or whatever it is MH so they're cleaner you know but as far as the breeding aspect you know uh what he said was pretty spot on especially the part where let's say you you uh inbreed and and you have that where where now now it it didn't work right you just go back one generation and move in a different direction from that point yeah the inbreeding part with dogs is you have to understand certain things like you're not going to get a lot of individuals that are top performers right but if you get one or two because they're so heavily inbred that's all you need and you can move forward like that I'm not a fan of heavy heavy inbreeding because in my experience it's not necessary you don't need it the reason you do it is to capture the traits to retain the traits that they have so if you make an inbreeding one time and you got that you don't have to repeat it over you don't have to keep doing it over and over yeah except in this sense let's say you do father daughter right it worked now with that same individual you might go might want to go mother to son or you might want to go brother sister so with those three in breedings like that that's all you need and then you can move forward and I I prefer lme breeding but the game file guys I knew they really didn't in breeding that much because they were competitors the Breeders I knew that that produce a lot of birds yeah they inbred and and maybe for the reasons like he said the chromosomes and like that they can take it better with some pit bulls like the red boy blood you can heavily inbreed them I don't know the reason why and with Jeep dogs you can inbreed them probably maybe three generations but like with the Zebo dogs you can't inbreed them heavy bred dyo dogs you cannot inbreed them it's been tried tutor tried it Carver tried it they all talked about it where but it didn't work right and when you see in breedings on Zebo you see a loss of performance and a loss of of of uh Health sometimes so I would I would definitely go along with what they said because they have more experience with the individuals at the time Dao himself Sons and Daughters of Dao Zebo himself and Sons and Daughters Zebo so I prefer lime breeding tight and loose because they're still all related and some are heavily related but you have crosses here and there to where it negates any health issues or uh inbreeding mental and and and temperament problems you know but but uh yeah I would say with game foul they can uh they can stand more heavier in breeding than with dogs and with race horses I think I mentioned that here or maybe but I've done it a couple times if you look up any famous racehorse or just look at the breedings of C particular race horses thbr race horses there's no inbreeding and me it has to do with the structure maybe because they only have one toe and their ankles are real thin whatever it is but look up secretary you can see a whole four five six generation pedigree none of the horses are related and if they are it's very distantly related so I don't know if that's common with all horses with the ones I looked up look up citation or Secretariat or wh the way way or or Seattle snw or any of them we don't see the same names anywhere for for several Generations it's it's mostly outcrossing and they're always going around looking whether it's the United States or Europe or or uh South America trying to bring fresh blood in all the time so with horses I think uh Lee said this a few days ago they don't produce as much Offspring as as the chickens or the dogs do so that is pattern that uh I hadn't really thought about until he said that and it's true you know when they can produce a lot of Offspring it seems like if you got a coal 50% it's not a big deal now when you're talking with horses good point you might not be want to co co 50% with the fowl or the dogs if at the beginning if you say oh man I'm going to have to call 50% but uh it's going to get me where I where I need to go eventually you know yeah yeah they're definitely limited because they can only have one full sometimes two and what I've seen if they have three none of them live if they have three Offspring for one breeding they don't live they can have one or two with horses so that's true the the they're Limited in the numbers that they that they can produce and whether it's nature or whatever doing it that way you know and then their gestation period is longer like I said for chickens it's 21 days for for uh dogs it's uh you know two months and for horses I'm not sure it may be 7 eight nine months uh what their gestation period is so they do have less individuals but like I said they really don't they really don't some I'm sure do right and uh if the if the horse makes it and and it's healthy and all that they might use it because ining does does concentrate the traits the gene pool is smaller so you have a chance of concentrating those traits and then hopefully that individual can produce it read it produce the same traits so uh Martin uh what what uh what are your thoughts do you do a lot of dog shows and things like that I I really want to but with the restaurant you know the weekends be hard in the slow season because because of Tourism I can go in the slow season which is now up until like maybe February it's easier for me to get involved into some some fun shows just to out and kind of feel I did one and we're planning to do another one where it's a non-sanctioned show the first day yeah and then the second day on on Saturday it's a sanction show so we're going to go up to Washington State we're going to try and and do that a few of us with some dogs that people have dogs for me we're going to try and do that so it's I'm I'm towing with it we want to do it bless bless you yeah uh yeah that that is a good way because uh I always wanted to ask people like that because a lot of us breeders are uh not in the dog shows because we don't have time uh per se and but I see a lot of dudes you know send their dogs off with handlers that's a more money you know what yeah but yeah it is I always say this about dog shows in any particular class uh only only one person's going to be the happiest you know yeah the first place and only three people can win for that particular class yeah so the the the the chances of you winning unless you have a record of of having confirmation sound uh individuals that can win on a consistent basis basically you're you're just going there because you like to have you like to go to dog shows and you like the camaraderie and the talking and the and the networking and all that stuff but going there expecting to win when I used to go to dog I never that if I won hey that was great it was nice but I never expected to win because there's so many individuals involved and then it's up to the judge's idea of what he considers a good individual that can win and most of the judges agree to a certain extent but uh again talking about if you're looking to get some gain on your investment dog show is it's not it yeah do it because you love it do it because you you know you want to get out there there's benefits to taking your dogs too they get to travel you have a companion with you maybe a protector with you and you get to meet other people and and Converse with other people and just enjoy the show might be able to buy some product or some memorability or whatever so that's how I looked at the dog show right yeah it it got to be fun because some people take it so serious you know what I'm saying they bringing four or five you never beat them yeah yeah or five they get what I what I don't like is when they don't win they get mad you know right right like that that stupid judge he don't know what he's looking at this and that come on dude yeah that don't even make sense you know yeah so uh hey Martin so like for as U modern day uh techniques and things like that that you probably you could advise to newer breeders I know you talking about pictures and things like that uh what you know what way how do you feel about the market right now do you I'm kind of thinking like you know they always say the covid buyers that uh breeders that about I don't think they going to be able to last and the uh and the dogs are going to pay for it what are your thoughts on that okay I can say that I thought about a year or two came by you have less impulse buyers I would have people who on Thursday they weren't even thinking about adding a dog to their family and on Saturday they were buying one for from me I used to have a lot of that especially depends where you advertise like newspapers or ads like that uh online ads so that that was a lot bigger like 2016 2018 you'd have a lot of that so we don't have as much of that now it's it's more specific you got the thing called H good dog that is a good tool for people looking for a dog you have people who are in the breed who love the breed and then they follow the people who have dog that they like I have people still contacting me for that but it's definitely the impulse buyers are gone right now uh maybe they have one and they want to add a second one just because and then uh we would also have the people who would buy a dog fall in love with their dog they got a nice dog on the first time and they are happy and then they want to breed with that first female dog they bought they'd have three litter they'd keep Maybe one female from the first litter and then breathe that second generation for for three they fix them they're not trying to to coold they're not trying to pet home and then they're full of dogs three dogs in the house they can't breed anymore they're stuck they just keep their pets and that's it they had a good uh I don't know maybe six or seven year run and then that happens I've sold dogs to a few people who have done that yeah stay yeah we used to say the the lifespan the average lifespan for pit bull people that are involved with it is about five years if you can last more than five years you probably going to stay in it most don't and uh they have that short run and that's it because I don't know they expect too much or they want too much they want things to happen fast and they think people should buy their their dogs based on a pedigree and I mentioned this before and I I'll mention here real quick in the past when we advertised dog and I didn't really sell a lot of dogs I gave some away I sold some here and there but at that time you could advertise you know their game he won he's a champion his daddy won daddy game and Mommy other winners and Grandpa and all that you can't do that anymore so how do you Market your dogs well for me it's simple because this relates to the past too if it's puppies the puppies should be healthy deep worm pedigree should be correct shouldn't have no fleas no no parasite right should could have a good temperament outgoing right amiable towards people loves kids like that that's the type of dogs I raised didn't matter they were pit bull if it's an adult same criteria they're they're healthy they're tough durable they're athletic he can run a treadmill he's obedience trained he's house trained he's he uh you know you can ride them around in your car you can take them to Disneyland do all this stuff if you're breeding dogs with that mindset even if it's a bble or a Rott wire whatever and they use that same individual for work that criteria should still be the same because if I'm going to sell a dog and I say yeah he's good with kids he's a grown dog two years old Stud I'm selling this stud right or three years old whatever it is he can be inside the house he's good with kids he loves my wife he he has some obedience training he he understands certain uh uh commands right Sit Stay whatever it is that's how I would be raising my dogs and breeding them and not only that he he he he he's familiar with pulling weights if it's a pit bull and he can run a treadmill race he can do the wall clim that's what I would be doing my dog because in the past that's what I did with my with pit for their original function I was training them or teaching them uh for if they made the grade I was going to compete with so they already knew how to work they weren't shy or timid you could take them anywhere you want they could be around people loud noises didn't bother them guns didn't bother them music none of that stuff I think that that would be a a selling point if people could do that with whatever breed of dog they have you're going to have people flocking to you man you know they they don't have to be highly trained obedience and this and that but just some basic things about them that where they could bring it into a home even if it's dog they're not familiar with it's a grown dog and hey this dog listens to me he doesn't tear up my furniture when he's inside the house he's not barking all day if I got him in a kandle outside or whatever and I just you know maybe somebody will take me up on that and start doing that I don't know that's some good stuff that's some good stuff um Martin um uh modern day uh well let me ask you this y'all said something y'all said the average breeder last about five to seven years I don't believe you can do anything forever but what is a what is a respectable time to where you think this is crazy question that a breeder can complete a program to like to get to that point like I've got my own I've developed my own lines and my traits I had a good run how long does that take so the time that it takes first you have to what what are we trying to accomplish we want a gene pool within the breed with specific traits and whatever the criteria for that is that's that's the end point so so that's where it be because I mean you could get 80% of the way there and it looks like you're done and it might be enough for a lot of breeders and you might you know start calling at a line at that point or you could you know keep going that last uh that last 5% is is the hardest might take just as long as the first 95% but uh I think if everything goes very very well and you have a high number of dogs like 20 dogs you could probably do that in about nine years I think I I look back at what I've done and I said all right if I would have doubled the number of dogs I have at the same failure at the same success rate but I doubled it I think I I would be there by now just because you your odds are better and you have more and maybe you know I had a lot of breedings Miss so if I would have doubled it you know maybe I would have got there by now so I say I say probably about 10 years if you have about 20 dogs and your criteria isn't isn't crazy like like a good Guardian that's also a pet now if you have crazy criteria like you need to do this you need to do that it's a working dog it does this it's a working dog for protection but it can tell the difference between you know a female and and a 12-year-old boy it's not a complete robot it'll just attack whatever if you tell to you know if you have really high criteria it'll probably take a little longer right right uh what what back at you Martin what were some key things in in your dogs that made you say uh I'm not using them um Vigor just like how is this four-month-old puppy just not hungry right now come on give like give me something be be a dog like what what's wrong like there's nothing wrong with the puppy the vet says there's nothing wrong but it's just it just doesn't have the want to right it just doesn't want to like come on be a dog it's just not we're not going to use that you know right yeah yeah and they didn't they didn't make it on the on the property past eight months and I mean we had a checkup the dog is fine the dog lived I think it's still alive but I mean it's not it's not nothing I want to reproduce for all my dogs to be like that you know this question is for both of y'all how soon are you studying the dog does it start from the weeling box or does it start at a point after that for dog yeah okay from birth from birth from birth because the way I looked at it especially and he was right on about that analogy he gave I would say the same thing about 10 years right now now the breed your dogs are always evolving there's always Evolution there's always Improvement right but you can establish your family of dog it takes about 10 years right so from the time they're born what I looked at since since I had a certain standards for the particular dogs I wanted that was my Foundation they had to have this that this that this if they didn't I didn't use them keep them breed them right once once that's established and you're going to start breeding your dogs those are the patterns you follow now you have to have the dogs from a a young age so that you can see how they behave what their behavior and temperament is like what their health is like what their physicality their ability their athleticism all that stuff so those were the criteria I used after each generation are these pups acting like their parents did when they were that age if they did those are the ones I'm going to follow now I'm going to keep them all pretty much because you know pups are Just Pups they can things can change over a period of time but when I see those same traits being transfer generation to generation at a young age which includes all I just said plus good work ethic intelligence you know Health Vigor Vitality all that stuff like he was talking about that that's the type of dogs I wanted so I had to see that with every generation once you do that and people argue with me all the time because pups are pups and all that once you do that you pretty much know at a young age which ones have more of a likelihood of turning out than uh those that don't and like I said I get I get you know arguments with that all the time so my thing is to tell them that just means you don't know your family of dogs how are you going to be breeding dogs for 10 or 15 or 20 years and you're going to say well I don't know how this Puff's going to turn out I don't know what whether he going to make it or not you should be correct 80 90% of the time you're never going to be 100% right you're always going to have uh you know one you thought was going to work out had a great potential to work out and it don't but that should be on the low end that shouldn't be that shouldn't be happening all the time because like tends to beet like they're they're they're going to behave a certain way because that's the way their parents did and that's the way their grandparents did and great-grandparents after you know 10 15 years you should have four five six generations of dogs of your own family of dogs and if you maintain those standards most of them are going to come out like that even the one like in my time even the ones that weren't gain they still had a lot of those characteristics of good work ethic and good with people and and intelligence and athleticism they just didn't make the grade at the final end of it but all that other stuff up yeah they had it too so that's that's the way I I looked at it that's how I judged my pups are they behaving like they ancestors and if it's your first time getting a particular dog or a pup then you have to have that information from the breeder or other people you know testimony whatever it is hey this guy's Dogs act like this and they do this and that and or this bloodline bolo is different from bully son and Mayday is different from from uh fle Buster whatever it is the family of dogs especially a particular family of dogs from a particular breeder should have similar characteristics all the way around gotcha gotcha so uh Martin have have you ever been a have you been able to maintain these 20 dogs yourself you got the property facilities for it or have you had to have I have I have the room to have 20 dogs I don't have the time or the kenel okay I have 20 dogs my right now I have I got up to 11 and I could have had maybe one more and been comfortable but right now my goal is to get down to to six by about New Year's and I all of the ones I have now they got with so there I plan on having about after that and then we'll we'll start the process over oh I see what you're doing yeah okay yeah yeah so I have two puppies right now and then I have three planned breedings to keep two two females from each each those breedings and uh and then we'll just see you know out of six uh so at one time maybe in June I'll have what I six puppies you know some will be some be like smallest ones will be you know like a month old two months yeah yeah but I'll consider them all puppies and out of those six or eight actually GNA is going to make it you know I'm going to have all those females and I'll be able to to pick what M meets my standard it would be awesome if it was one of each right right yeah I'm waiting to do a breeding I I I did some of my shepherd breedings and I'm I'mma pull some off it but I'm really waiting to do a Coro breed next next year that I'mma I'mma get ready and you know go to the next level on finally you know what I'm saying it's kind of like uh it's kind of like what people say you really do breed for yourself you know what I mean you know and then you know the public is is kind of second because you are creating something for you first that you know fits your lifestyle I got children I got you know you know uh things I want to see in a dog uh which which is a family dog like what you say you you breeding a dog that's uh a home protector a home guardian and that's the that's the goal I don't wanted to go eat nobody's ass up but be intelligent enough to recognize a threat between a non-threat you know what I mean yeah yeah well dogs typically again maybe that's changed in modern times right they they were natural protectors and and even mine who weren't aggressive towards people none of mine ever bit anybody and they were more they were more docile with children than they were with adults and I think because they knew that the kids were small and weak and they didn't want to hurt him right so one of my dog he might jump all over me but he wouldn't do it with my three-year-old daughter he knew he could hurt him and most of mine were like that you know so uh being that their natural even mine they would protect to the level of the threat sometimes it just meant getting in between an individual Maybe growling a little bit but they would never fullon attack somebody unless that person attacked one of my family members they just they just weren't that way so some of that might have been bred out of the dogs or it's not followed right even our muts German Shepherds right when I say protectors they were always close by they were always looking out for us whether it was a person or a snake or or a coyote whatever it was they were always on guard right and again they would protect to the level of threat so uh when you do that and when you're breeding your dogs if you have a a a successful program and again I get a lot of backlash on this too right you're going to have all these dogs in your yard whether it's 5 10 15 20 whatever it is and and they're basically all related you should be able to go out there and whatever individual you want to breed to should produce for you and people say no well this one produces better than that one okay that happens but in my pedigrees if you look at them most all the dogs are related some are littermates Sons daughters aunts uncle whatever they all produce good dogs because they all had that standard behind them of the way they were raised and which ones I use and competition and all that stuff and because in my mind I might lose this dog well I still have his brother and his brother's going to throw a good dog I still have his daddy oh well there's no there's no females in this litter well I still have the cousins to the to the pups in that litter that didn't have any females but I still have their female cousins I still have their aunt I still have their mama so that's the way I look at you have to get it to a point where any dog you choose in your most of the time in your family of dogs they're going to throw something for you something good and then it's just a matter because it doesn't happen 100% the ones that don't then you don't breed those but if you follow that pattern you can pretty much go out in your yard well I like this one maybe maybe you like this one's temperament better than that one or you like this dog style better than that one that's just a preference it doesn't mean that one throws better than the other except for the individual person but they all produce game dog or or or athletic dogs or good air or like that that I had to get to that point because I didn't have a lot of individuals so whichever ones I kept were the best ones of all the breedings I did and again it's never going to be 100% you're still going to have call but what happened is my calls started getting less and less and the performance individuals that could win and and be at that high level became more and more whereas when I first started out maybe two or three in the litter were good and six weren't well after after 10 years now I got six that are good and two or three that that ain't right right right for me it has to go that way or you're just breeding for whatever you have no goals but there's always Evolution you always you need to add certain things sometimes because you're lacking some things right but I tried like hell not to lose the good traits that my my dogs had and if they had a major fault or what I considered a major fault I wouldn't breed them no matter how good they were or how well their pedigree was or none of that stuff all right hey so I I want to tackle this subject and uh and uh because I I hear my uh a couple of my guys Ben White Ben White love you I'm fa I'm F to talk about your setup uh Ben White uh is a brief out there up north I don't know if y'all he been on my show but he's the one that feed the guy the dog the English Masters the raw and uh he let him run free you know being white you gotta look it up school booy you might not know who being white is I I think I saw yeah maybe I saw a clip of him yeah yeah big on Tik Tok big on Tik Tok then we got Jordan Jordan of exotic Boral they did a show together and they was talking about you know uh the uh securing your animals now Ben he's in an area where he can run dogs free and ideally most of us would if it was possible but where we live we got to secure our dogs so uh and then I see a lot of kennel facility talks and things about uh and things like this uh let talk about the chain and the uh securing your dog versus the Kel um I start with my thoughts is uh first off it goes by the laws of where of the land you live in on what you can do to secure your dogs because I know some some places don't you can't put them on the Chain uh if that's your preference uh mine are in kennels um and uh they but we we get them out we let we get them running we get them playing mine don't have no psychological like prison damage from being in the K they go get get in the crate my dogs to me my dogs don't have like uh people put kennels as like as some form of imprisonment and uh but what's you guys thoughts on kennels chains a securing your dog however I can go first on this so uh I I personally use kennels I have uh some 20 by 20 like uh chain link kennels with some ugly concrete I did I just mixed it up in a wheelbarrow and 20 by 20s yeah 20 by 20s and I nice took so concrete I think I did 30 I mixed 30 bags at a time and I got 75% of every kennel with concrete and then I built like a a 10x10 little cport thing with pressure treated 4x4s for each corner and then metal metal roofing and then I put two doghouses right outside of that so they're inside their dogghouse and they step out of their dogghouse and they're underneath the cover for for rain or shade yeah and it's it's big I I could put three puppies in one of those like like five months old puppies man they're running around in circles so I have three of those I have room to build one more in in that area behind my house and then I have two 10x10 kandles in the front of my house okay that's that's what I do because it works for me it's easy for me to manage I get up in the morning and I let them all out and they all run I actually I have one female older female who doesn't get along with them so she gets let out at a different time and then I had one female who had a a bump knee so I let her I let her out with another dog that's that's more gentle that's not going to make her run or or run into her so I I let out like six of them at a time and and they run and they know when it's time to go back in they don't they like their kennel it's their safe spot they they go back in that's where they get fed so they like to eat and you know hour and a half two hours and it's time to go back in I just open the door and they go right back in and their 20 by 20s or even their 10 by 10 I've done the uh it's like a like a zip line from tree to tree and it's got the little run so they can they they cable run cable run that's the one I've had those I had two of those at one time it was easier for me to manage my dogs in kennels than in those cable runs because one tree had a bunch of I don't know what you call it sap or pitch yeah yeah get dogs and then I'm like I couldn't get it off used the peanut butter butter trick whatever and so that didn't work and I used my other cable run but then you have to worry about shade you have to worry about the what kind of dogghouse and like where to put it and then I don't know sometimes I'd have the hardware snap so it's yeah I think it's how you can manage your dogs as far as the laws and stuff like that I mean if you have a 10- foot chain and a 10- foot kennel which gives them more area you know with the chain they can go 10t this way 10 feet that way you know you got a you got more square feet than the kenel where they're at but I think it matters on how how you can manage them better yeah yeah well said yeah with pit bulls I prefer chain hookups for one of the reasons he said you have more you have more room to move around right and also there's more freedom of movement you know they know they're confined and even in a kennel they know they're confined but the kenel can have that that like you said imprisonment effect now once they become accustomed to it it's not that bad but some dogs especially pit bull man they'll just they'll try and rip that kennel up they'll on the chain and the grof and with with pit bulls especially like mine if you have them next to each other on a kennel and it's not covered and even if they're covered put a you know a plywood in they scream all day man they will not settle down because you know they The Dog's right next to them maybe a foot away maybe whatever where you can have more space on a between dogs with chain hookups but you need a lot more room too now that that 20 by 30 candle run I could live with that all day long you know if it was my dog you know if I could have they could be separate you know one here one there like that if I could do that with $20 that'd be that'd be perfect you know uh and and uh uh but other than that it depends you know how I know people that love cable runs there's a lot more work to it you really takes time and experience to learn which hookups work and you got to keep an eye on them because it's going back and forth and it can wear down and break off and all this stuff the dog can get hung up and injure itself more if it has a long distance to run you know it could it could hit something and hit the end of that cable run and yank his neck and all kinds of stuff now where I live it's a lot of Agriculture dairies livestock cattle sheep Hogs all that so in the county any dog can run loose there's there's no limit to them because we have hunters we have farmers and all that in town is different I haven't checked but there might be a certain number of dogs you can have and even in town though you can still have them chained up in town right even even here in town you can have Hogs and chickens and goats you can't have cattle and horses in town but you can have a lot of different types of livestock in town but in the county it's almost wide open you have as many as you want except for for cattle and and horses they have to have a certain amount of acreage per number of of individuals but other than that I just just with pit bulls mostly I I like the I like the the chain hookups and like you said and a lot check your state local County whatever laws and see how you can maintain your dog because you may think it's okay but if you're violating something and somebody says something it's going to be a problem for you so always check that first to see how you can maintain your dog and keep right hey uh that's all that's about all I got is there anything else you guys want to cover uh not not really okay it's on you or Martin if you wanna you want to bring something up go I'm just here is I talked about before that I could uh bring up real quick okay when you talk about school boy when you talked about uh showing people your dogs that they're you know parasite free that that they're good that they've got some basic training and they're good with the family showing showing that to people is is really important today a lot of people you know they talk about social media oh you have to make reals you have to do all this professional photography and that definitely helps a lot but if you just show people the basics of your dogs online that that also that also can help because it shows people who you are uh gives them a little insight into your world with dogs and then they they kind of feel like they know you they kind of feel like they trust you or maybe they don't like you and they go away or they like you and and now they're a fan and they feel more comfortable with with giving you a call because they know how how you are what your personality is and and they feel more comfortable to buy an animal right that hey that's that's so true brother because because uh you have a lot of times uh uh when dogs attack people Bo they give us a they give us the game of black eye you know I mean yeah yeah you know I had some videos of my family maners interacting with with pit bulls and these were they were they had some of my blood some of them had some of my blood in them but I was raising them basically for kids one of them I we for friends I wept the litter for one my grandsons raised a couple of dogs for different people and I just happen to take these videos interacting with my grandchildren interacting with my children one I had we had inside the house and and I had video when we first got him he was a little puppy and he was raised basically in a kennel but there was hardly no sunlight so he wouldn't even walk just just on his own he would crawl right when we first got him I have a video us at the we went and picked him up at the uh and then we stopped on the way at a at a what do you call that a rest stop right and Angie got him out and he's walking with him he's crawling on the ground little pup you know three months old whatever he was then I took a video later on of him playing with the grandkids and inside the house with Angie he's following around in the car vehicle no timidity no no uh he wasn't scared of nothing and it's just a matter of bringing that pup out of that shell and doing it but I had several of them I can't find them for some reason I don't know if I lost them or whatever but along those lines that Martin was saying if you could show things like that I think it would bring people potential buyers to say hey I want a dog like that at least the dog behaves and he's playing with the kids and he's good he's not acting stupid not chewing the house up you know I even had one where you know just on command get in the crate come out of the crate go to the bathroom come back in get in the crate he'd be on my bed to my wife used to let him lay on the bed okay get off the bed get in your crate he just go like that he was just do it you know you can do that with a lot of different breeds of dogs and a lot of dogs some you can't train them for [ __ ] they just they're built different that's okay but a potential puppy like that three or four months old maybe that you have house trained or and and he interacts with the kids and all like that you know just in everyday life I think that would be a good marketing tool I'm surprised more people haven't done it you know yeah I know when when you look at a commercial for anything a vacation to stay at a hotel you know that's that's what they're showing you so that's what that's what they're showing you yeah that's a hey you dropped a lot of game and to help people you need to show these things uh I did one not too long I did it twice uh uh within the last two years and people love that video like I was sitting my little girl in with that that that Central Asian Shepherd and let let her feed them you know to show people you know the dog ain't crazy like that you know what I mean put in the B that is that is the number one question a lot of breeders get are these dolls good with children you know what I mean right you get that question a lot hey what's your what's your guys thoughts on adopt don't shop uh what is that so that's that's like a movement that tell you you to go to the uh pound and get a dog before you deal with a breeder yeah I'm I'm kind of leery of that and for this reason why is a dog in the pound that's the first thing I would it's somebody's problem they didn't want anymore whether it got too big whether it bit somebody whether it it can't be house trained whatever it is it's somebody's problem and in a lot of these cases that's all you're getting is a potential problem that maybe even the pound don't know about because of the environment it's in whereas you take it home it's in a different environment and the behavior might be reflective of something that triggers that dog to do something you know that that you wouldn't want so with a lot of them I look at at them as being a problem that they're just pting off to somebody else they don't have the wherewithal or whatever it is to call them so they just either cut them loose in the street or they take it to a pound and you know nowaday you can't hear anyway you can't just drop a dog off or even a cat they well they won't take cats where I live but you got to pay for them to to take your dog right to to to be in the pound yeah most people they don't even want to do that right but the ones that do my question always was why do they get rid of it in the first place why don't they want it sometimes it's because they're moving to a different place and they can't have this big old dog or whatever they move from a home to aart whatever it is but most of the time it's it's for a negative reason why they got rid of it so right I don't know man you can't save every animal yeah and that's the attitude of a lot of people right they they won't call anything and and for me calling in today's it means don't breed it right but again the people have I have this investment this much money I'm G to breed it and try and sell some pups off of it and and make something back on my investment or whatever it is and just that's not a good way to go about it right stay in neuter or whatever you got to do but don't breathe the damn thing yeah I can I can see it from a couple ways it's either the dog comes from an unstable home like a divorce or the people are between jobs or they never were like that stable they got their car repoed kind of thing or the dog is unstable but you never see a fine LED dog in the shelter yeah that's true that's a lie they not they not telling is not a pure breed dog problem you're not gonna see a dog like Batman in a shelter right you know I could you know I could say hey Batman's available and I'll have offers for money people who will say please if you're having it for free I'll take it I never even wanted a dog but I like that dog you you'll never see like a finally break bre dog you you might see someone's coals like you had said uh but you're not going to see a finely bred dog in the shelter it's either coming from an unstable home or the dog's unstable or they're doing this thing where they're bringing dogs from other countries they do that too yeah see yeah I'm GNA do a show on this I got to do a show on it somebody been asking a lot of misc uh conception and when you adopt yeah most of them honestly they're they're muts they're muts that are you know even even uh you like my my my uh some of my relatives they'll adopt dog like that and they you know they'll tell does this look like pit bull this and that it may have some pitbull in but they not a pitbull and I tell them you know and and most of them are just you know the shelter tell them well it's this that and that put together the shelter don't even know but most of them like you said they're not well-bred dogs or or something of value that's in there and then and then when you adopting they say uh adopt don't shop but when you go to adopt you going to pay a fee for that dog few hundred you know what I'm saying so you still you still buying while they down talking breeders uh that can you know that's kind of working it's big business man it's turn into a multi-million dollar a year business it is you know and I'm finding out too I've been finding out something else about this breeders are getting into uh rescues and this and and things like this breeders yeah yeah yeah so and I because I found out that like you can get government grants don't Nations and and everything so that would be another show that would be another show too brother because yeah in fact I talked about it the other day on you know somebody's really serious about this making a business meaning meaning obedience training protection training whatever it is hunting whatever there there there's loans government loan there's government grants for that and they're not it could be anywhere from $5,000 to $250,000 to a million doll grants free money for that if you have the wherewithal to put the plan together and the projection of the what it you know where you're going to go with it and how much it's going to cost you and and sale all that stuff so right I mean for for some young person that's really interested in that you there's a lot of help for you to do that yeah and then this is another thing I see a put down in in uh the dog Community is called Puppy meal you know it's always yeah puppy meal man if you know what a puppy meal really was so I'm telling you it's government grants for puppy meals drive through Missouri if you want to see a place with two 200 dogs oh yeah that's USDA appr I'm G do a show yeah yeah do it yeah and they've been around a long time they had you know on 2020 and a lot of them news programs where they go to these people's places and have you know real puppy meal you know that's a real puppy meal yeah yeah yeah so yeah fellas that's all I got today man I thank y'all good show man thanks for being here Martin you know thank you you helped a lot man it just you know there's nothing that you said that I couldn't agree with it just bought on and what shows you like I mentioned before is a lot of this stuff is across the board you know he got game foul and and a different breed of dog I got Pitbull you got a different breed a lot of it is is common between the the the animals even though it's something different you know so I really enjoy listening to your talk Martin was good man yeah he's good lot coming from you I appreciate it yeah yes sir well uh guys I want you to go over and follow school boy on his social media school booy got some really good content over on his social media he drop uh drop something about every week don't you sometimes several times a week yeah I try and put two two or three videos out a week then I put pictures up and my daughter does all that you know she does the thumbnails and all that and I got school baby hundreds of yeah school baby I have hundreds of topics that you know I'll get to them eventually and I'm always open if somebody wants to suggest a topic I'll I'll try and do my best to put it up there right Martin tell them where to find you you do excellent content as well keep people informed yeah you can find me on uh YouTube Instagram and Facebook Facebook ATA amican Bulldog where you can find my personal Facebook page uh Martin Gonzales and then it'll have it'll have in parenthesis fera American Bulldog so even if you type in fera you'll probably find my personal page too all right well we if you're you're ever in Oregon and you like you want to have some good tacos or some some uh right here whatever just go to go to his rest if I go up there I'm going to stop by Martin I'm telling you man got you yes sir all right well uh everybody uh we're approaching the holiday season uh this probably be airing the day before Thanksgiving so uh Happy Holidays to you happy holiday thank you brother thank you all right see you peace and that wraps up another episode of NWA Connie Coro thank you for being a part of our Connie Coro community remember you can stay connected with us beyond the podcast find us on all major media platforms by searching for NWA Connie coros whether it's Facebook Instagram Twitter or YouTube just hit that follow button to join the conversation and get the latest updates if you have a burning question or want to apply to be a guest on our show we'd love to hear from you simply shoot us an email at NWA conic coros gmail.com and if you're a business interested in becoming a sponsor reach out to to us at the same email address for more resources exclusive content and links to all our social media profiles visit our website at nwaac conic cor. it's your go-to destination for everything dogs thank you once again for tuning in and we can't wait to bring you more exciting episodes where we explore the fascinating world of dogs [Music] ...

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